One Clap Speech and Debate
One Clap Speech and Debate is a resource for Speech and Debate coaches and competitors. We interview heroes of the Speech and Debate community about the transformative power of the activity and work to provide free and helpful content for Speech and Debate enthusiasts. Lyle Wiley, an English teacher and Speech and Debate Coach in Thermopolis, Wyoming, hosts the show.
One Clap Speech and Debate
Camp One Clap 2, Episode 13: Natalyia Kopack on Flexibility, Courage, and Gender Bias in Debate
6:13 - Camp One Clap 2024: Day 13
For notes and details about the episode, check out the website here:
https://www.oneclapspeechanddebate.com/post/camp-one-clap-2-episode-13-natalyia-kopack-on-flexibility-courage-and-gender-bias-in-debate
Today's episode of the One Clap Speech and Debate podcast features the inspiring journey of Natalyia Kopack, a rising junior at Cheyenne East High School. Natalyia debuts at camp to talk about trying new events and the importance of equality in Speech and Debate!
Read Natalyia's Equality in Forensics article here: https://www.equalityinforensics.org/blog/a-girl-debaters-guide-to-keep-goin
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Hey campers. Spooky day 13 of the clapocalypse is here and frightening indeed. But today at Camp One Clap, natalia Kopak is here to help. Natalia debuts at camp to talk about trying out new events and the importance of equality in speech and debate. I'm your camp director and host of the One Clap Speech and Debate podcast, lyle Wiley. Hopefully this year's Camp One Clap is providing inspiration and resources to encourage speech and debate coaches and competitors to embrace their fears and move forward with resolve to speak their truth in this coming season. Quick reminder check the OneClap socials for today's social media challenge. The engagement with these challenges has been really fun this year. Let me tell you a little bit about today's guests.
Lyle Wiley:Natalia Natalia Kopak is a rising junior competing for Cheyenne East High School. She's a self-certified jack-of-all-trades and has competed in Lincoln Douglas Pug Book Forum, extempt Debate Congress, duo, drama and Informative. Her article A Girl Debater's Guide to Keep Going was published in the Equality and Forensics blog. Listen to her episode to find out more about the challenges women face in the debate sphere, as well as some perspective on trying out new events and staying passionate about the activity. Without further ado, here's my interview with a student called smarter than Abraham Lincoln by her coach, natalia Kopak. Welcome to Camp One, clap Natalia Kopak. Hey, it's really great to have you on the podcast. You've, however, inadvertently stumbled upon the clapocalypse and I'm so glad you're here.
Natalyia Kopack:I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Lyle.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah, we know each other from the Wyoming Forensics Institute. It was really great to work with you last summer and, of course, I've seen you around the Wyoming circuit and you're a fabulous debater and it's just really great to have you on here. I do want to like start things off, though, by talking about fear and terror and scary stuff. What's your favorite scary story like movie, book?
Natalyia Kopack:Probably anything by Tim Burton or Henry Selick I'm a big fan of, like Coraline, the Night Before Christmas and Corpse Bride They've kind of rotated being my favorite movie since I was really little and also I got introduced to the it franchise last summer and I really loved that.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah, that's a creepy franchise for sure. My daughter's really into Coraline Been a big fan of that story for a long time. It's pretty weird the buttons on eyes thing that gets to me. Do you like horror movies?
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, actually, every year during October I do a big thing with some of my friends where we watch a horror movie for every day of October. So I get, I get exposure to a lot of them every year.
Lyle Wiley:Well, that's pretty exciting. So, uh, speaking of the apocalypse on a scale of one to 10, how likely do you think you would survive an actual apocalypse like a post-apocalyptic wasteland? You think you would survive an actual apocalypse like a post-apocalyptic wasteland, something out of a dystopian novel? Would you be a survivor? You strike me as a survivor.
Natalyia Kopack:Well, I'd like to think I was a survivor, but I think if we're looking at it honestly, I might be at about a four or five on that one to ten scale. I think intellectually I have some talents, but I don't think I have the physical prowess to survive any apocalypse and I might kind of get done after a while with that mental capacity and just be like oh, I don't know about this anymore yeah.
Lyle Wiley:Do you have any skills that you'd bring to the table in a the apocalypse situation?
Natalyia Kopack:I think I could be a supervisor a super, yeah. I'll allocate our resources and like, ration everything out, maybe decide some tasks and put everybody else to work, but I think I'll just stay there and not maybe do any of the labor or anything like that.
Lyle Wiley:Like an intellectual sort of emotional support leader, like that sort of situation.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah, I have a feeling talking to these speech and debate folks who are the most wonderful people in the world, however, maybe not the most prepared for a post-apocalyptic wasteland people Cause, like most folks so far, are saying that they don't feel comfortable about their survival chances.
Natalyia Kopack:I think we're definitely not a physical club.
Lyle Wiley:That's probably a fair generalization. So I've never had a chance to have you on the podcast now, so I'm going to ask you some generalized questions about your speech and debate experience first, and then we're going to talk about a whole bunch of other stuff. So what got you into speech and debate? What's your story? What's your speech and debate origin story?
Natalyia Kopack:I kind of have an origin pulled from a bunch of different areas. I grew up doing community theater in Cheyenne and Ashley Schultz, one of my coaches all of her kids were also super involved in the community. So Dani was always someone that I really looked up to and thought was super awesome in the theater community. And suddenly she stopped trying out as much and participating and I was like where are you going? Like what's going on? And she had joined Speech and Debate and was focusing on that a lot more.
Natalyia Kopack:And that was kind of my first introduction was oh, she's really cool, maybe, if she likes it, I should try it once I get to high school. And then also Jeff Pope, our policy coach, has always been kind of a cousin to me. We're not actually related but our families are really close. So hearing that he coached policy, I was like oh, another person I know is in speech and debate, maybe I should try it out. And then, joining high school, I got to meet Viney and a bunch of people on the team who kind of introduced me to different events and all of that and I got trapped and I'm stuck here.
Lyle Wiley:Yep, they got you, they got you. They got you tied down. There's nothing you can do about it now. What kind of events are you competing in Like? What event do you like the best?
Natalyia Kopack:What event do I like the best? That's such a hard question because I have competed in quite a few. I think debate is obviously my favorite. I have a pretty big leaning towards LD, but my favorite favorite has to be Extempt Debate. I know it's not like a main event or anything crazy, but ever since I was introduced totend Debate last year it's been my favorite of all time. I think it is kind of the best form of debate that the NSC offers. It's a great balance of education on current issues and kind of keeping competitors on their toes with different topics and all of that. And I also find that it simplifies debate down to the bare bones and makes it about weighing arguments and kind of turning them instead of who has more people on their team to do prep and who has more cards. It's super fundamental and I think our competition kind of gets more progressive style every year when it comes to our other debates and it's so bare bones that you can't really make it more progressive and you kind of just get to debate fundamentals.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah, I love extemp debate. What a fun debate. I wish we had more of it on our Wyoming circuit for sure. What other events have you done? You've dipped into Platform Interp any of that stuff?
Natalyia Kopack:I've dipped into Interp. I did Duo and Drama my freshman year and then I also had scripts for a couple other that I practiced, but I never ended up competing anything else. And then I've also done the same thing with Platform, where I've written speeches and kind of practiced them and I go to practices but I've never kind of actually competed with them and dip my toes completely in. And then I did. I've done pretty much every debate event except for policy, except debate. I've done LD, I've done public forum and then I also do Congress.
Lyle Wiley:Awesome, so you really have gotten involved in a lot of the activities. Do you have any plans to do something different this year?
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, I'm actually planning on maybe trying out policy this year, which is new for me. I think there's a stigma around it, so I'm kind of excited to try that out. And then I've been trying to work up the energy and the motivation to do an info for the past two years and I haven't done it. So I'm thinking of maybe doing an oratory or an informative instead of Congress.
Lyle Wiley:Okay, cool, cool. Well, one of the things we'll talk about is like trying different activities and stuff. So we'll get there. We'll talk about how, uh, you shifting gears and different kinds of debates. It's kind of informed the way that you think about debate, but, uh, what's something about this season that's unique, that you learned about yourself, or just a good memory that you have? Anything that stands out from this season specifically?
Natalyia Kopack:I think for this season, everything about it for me was kind of about being less stressed. My freshman year I switched between LD and PF and I always felt kind of stressed and anxious about it because I didn't know if I was allowed to be switching and I wasn't sure which one I liked more and all of that. And this year once again I competed Lincoln-Douglas in public forum and I kind of felt more comfortable switching between the two and realizing that it's okay to like more than one event. And I think this season has really just been big for me in finding where my passion in speech and debate is, because I love speech and debate but there's different parts that I love more than others and figuring that out has been huge for me because it's a lot easier to stay motivated and to continue competing with all of my heart when I'm aware that I can do different events and that I'm allowed to kind of do what makes me happy in the community.
Lyle Wiley:Cool, yeah, like let's, let's talk about that a little bit. So I know a lot of competitors I've coached in the past get pretty like comfortable either in one event or they maybe they feel like it's just too much to try to take on something new or different and they're hesitant to try different kinds of new competitions. I mean it can be kind of scary to try new stuff, but like, what are some of the reasons that you think that students hesitate to shift gears and try new events?
Natalyia Kopack:I think that it starts with how maybe jarring it is to join speech and debate. A lot of the kids that are in the community are surprisingly the shocking or shockingly quiet kids, the people who maybe don't speak up as much as they, as you would expect. So I think already joining speech and debate is kind of difficult and something that is really scary. So trying to do multiple events or trying to drift events especially your novice year, when it might be the most useful to be changing around and figuring out what you really like it's easier to stick to one because that's the skill set you're learning, that's the format you understand and it's easier to stay there. I also think that there's some issues that we have around stigma of certain events. I'm not completely sure what it's like in Interp and Platform, but I know that in debate specifically, there's definitely a bad attitude around kids that do policy or kids that do Congress, where it's like, oh, those events are bad, you can't do them that kind of keep people away from them. And I'm sure there's similar events in Platform and Interp that have those same issues, but I think that's also an issue.
Natalyia Kopack:And then also when it comes to community, when you join Speech and Debate. You have so much interaction with other teams from different parts of the state. And when you're doing one event, you meet all of the people in that event and you get more comfortable because you realize that you can go to tournaments and have people to talk to and know the people in your events and kind of have this steady system and community around you. And when you're joining new events or trying different things out, it's new people, it's new formats, it's different skill sets that you have to learn. And I think that can be really jarring for people, especially novices, because I think you're a novice, you really should be experimenting and figuring out what you like the best. But it can be really difficult with all of those different things that are just kind of scary and loom over you.
Lyle Wiley:Absolutely. Do you think the fact that our activity is competitive and some of the pressures that come with trying to be competitive might have something to do with this too? Like folks may be dipping into events that they feel like they can have more success in, as opposed to events that maybe they're more drawn to?
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, of course I think sometimes people look at the competition pool and go, oh maybe I could do better in this event and I want to place really well, and so they join it and they don't really have the passion to be doing the event, they just want the trophies or anything like that. And I also think it can go the opposite way, where someone tries to go to an event that they're drawn to and they have that learning curve where they're not placing at first and instead of sticking with it, they kind of go. Maybe I should just stay in my box and not try to experiment.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah Well, and I don't know if there's a right answer for what direction a student should go, but depending on goals and stuff, I think it's important to think about that, probably in terms of what you choose. So, so you've had some experience trying out some different stuff. What are some of the challenges and advantages of trying new and different events?
Natalyia Kopack:I think one of the primary challenges is just learning those different skill sets. I think that can be really scary at first, and especially in the debate world joining PF versus joining LD. It's a completely new format. The way we construct cases is different and kind of, even though there are fundamental debate skills that every debate carries, there is more tailored skills in each event that you kind of have to adapt to. I think that's one of the biggest challenges is just learning the new format, learning how to do things and sticking to it instead of running away the first time that you're scared.
Natalyia Kopack:And then I also think that that performance learning curve was really hard for me. That was originally. The reason why I switched to public forum in the first place was I competed in varsity for the first time for LD and I kind of had this fear and imposter syndrome, like I'm not good enough, I don't deserve to be doing this event. So I ended up switching into a partner event where I started doing well in the varsity season. And I think that performance learning curve where when you're switching or when you're trying new events and you don't place well automatically can be really scary because you feel like you don't need to be there and you have to switch because you're not doing well enough, and also just that fear and self-doubt about having the abilities to change, because a lot of people, myself included, just feel like it is really difficult and maybe I'm not built to be trying new events, maybe I'm not made for this one, and instead of sticking to it, I think it's really easy to leave and go back to that box.
Lyle Wiley:What about, like advantages, like what are some of the things that are good about, like getting out of your comfort zone and trying new events?
Natalyia Kopack:I think different skill set is also a advantage, because when you are learning those different things you become more confident all around the board. Because when you realize that you can do both formats and you can debate and you can do all these different events, it's so much easier to keep competing and to say I am good enough. And then your performance in every event that you do starts to go up because you realize that you do deserve to be here and that this event is something that you're able to do and that you have the skill set to do. And then I also think that there's just another understanding and appreciation of other events that kind of bonds teams together. When you understand what interpreters have to do, what platformers have to do, what debaters have to do to succeed in their events and the work that goes into everything, I think you just have more of an understanding and respect for the work that your teammates do, which creates a healthier environment where everybody kind of appreciates and understands each other, and I think it makes it a lot easier to have respect on the team. And then also just finding new passions and interests Speech and debate, I think, sometimes with specific topics and debate, or maybe your speech it kind of gets a little dull and you start to feel unmotivated by the end of the season and maybe just burnt out.
Natalyia Kopack:But when you have other events that you like and you're not just stuck to one, you have more passion and you have more interest in staying in the community because there's different things for you to try. And even if you're not switching events all the time and you don't have multiple, knowing that you can change events and kind of thinking about that makes it easier to stay and say, hey, even if I'm not feeling it right now, there's always opportunity to try something else and to stay. And then I just think overall it obviously helps your self-image and confidence if you know that you can change and you're happy with your performance and confident in what you're doing.
Lyle Wiley:That's some great stuff. I totally agree with all those things. I do want to take a moment for a ghostly interlude here and ask you if you believe in ghosts and the paranormal.
Natalyia Kopack:I do. I think it is completely impossible that there's so many coincidences, like in specific haunted places everybody's saying, oh yeah, I saw this ghostly figure and everybody's saying the same thing. I have a hard time believing that that's a coincidence. I think that the ghost definitely has to be there and also you just see a lot of maybe not evidence but recording and firsthand experiences of paranormal activity and of seeing ghosts, and I don't think that it is possible that everybody's just making that up together.
Lyle Wiley:I think it has to be based in truth there is a lot of unexplained phenomena out there, isn't there?
Natalyia Kopack:yeah, and I think just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that it isn't real, especially with the paranormal. Just because we might not scientifically get it doesn't mean that it isn't real, especially with the paranormal. Just because we might not scientifically get it doesn't mean we won't in the future and that it is happening.
Lyle Wiley:Yeah, yeah, preach Nat, so we are going to shift gears a little bit. Thank you for your perspective on multiple events and, yeah, you think you might try some different stuff this year, potentially.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for is I do like to stay on my toes and debate and just kind of try out different things and figure out what speaks to me the most. So that's my goal this year is to try out some new stuff.
Lyle Wiley:Cool, that's exciting. But I also really want to talk with you about this really great article that you wrote for Equality and Forensics this year. So I mean, it was a really thoughtful and an important and a personal article. You titled it A Girl Debater's Guide to Keep Going, and I'd like to really talk with you about that, if that's okay. First off, you know, wow, like you point out in the article, the stats are clear that girl competitors are leaving debate faster than guys. So why is this? What specific obstacles do girls uniquely have to navigate in this debate world?
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, so there's a lot of issues that women face, and I also think it is important to note that the issues that I do talk about also apply to other demographics and minorities, like people of color and people that maybe aren't cisgender in the community, although I do think I'm most specifically qualified to talk about the female issues. I think it is important to realize that they do affect everybody. And then also, when you go into the issues that do affect people, my article talks about judge bias and higher standards as two of the main issues, and then also discouragement and bullying. So first, starting with that judge bias and higher standards I think that it can kind of be split into two subsets of issues. The first one is the stereotypes and the gender stereotypes that women have to kind of tailor to and adapt to in the debate community, because a lot of people, especially maybe older judges that we have truly believe that girls should be quiet, non-argumentative and really polite in rounds, and that can be incredibly damaging and harmful for debaters, because being argumentative is the entire purpose of debate. The entire point is for us to make arguments in that bold and assertive way and to defend ourselves. It is completely vital to writing a case and participating in a round, and although that's the goal of debate, women are losing grounds for doing it. The stats that I talk about in my article say that women are 17.1% less likely to win a round against male debaters, and it's not just because they can't hack it. It's because of these gender stereotypes and because of the higher standards that they face when you look to it.
Natalyia Kopack:There's also judge bias when it comes to clothing. Most girls will tell you that they have to think about their outfits much harder than the average male in debate, and it's for good reason, because almost every judge has this preconceived notion of what a female debater should be wearing, and some of them want you to wear pants and be more masculine in your attire. Some don't really care at all and others want you to be as feminine as possible in skirts and heels and all of that. But those aren't the only requirements, because then you see more things like if your skirt is too short, then you're not being professional enough and everything about your look has to be feminine but can't be showy or skimpy. And there's just a million different perspectives on attire that girls should be wearing and everybody kind of has to like hold up the world trying to figure out what the best outfit to appeal to the most judges is going to be. And that's on top of already doing all of the prep and research. That male debaters are doing is because they have to figure out their outfits, they have to figure out how to appeal to these gender stereotypes so they're not losing rounds because simply there isn't really a huge way around it. And they also have to cut all of these cards, write their cases. It's kind of this double load of work, I think.
Natalyia Kopack:And then also we see a lot of discouragement and bullying, which I think once again comes in two different forms. First is, of course, judges and coaches, who I think are the people with the most impact. When we see that the standards are unfair for girls and we look at that judge bias, we're going to see more losses on women's ballots. That stuff I told you earlier is from an empirical study of gender differences in competitive high school debate, and then another one. The Talon says that they found that two men have a 37.6% higher chance of winning over two women in the same debate format, and that can be incredibly discouraging when girls are aware of the issue and knowing oh, I might be at a disadvantage going into this round because I'm going up against a boy. It can be really discouraging and bad on your self-esteem and mental health is going. Oh, I don't think I'm going to win this. I have to debate boys. And then, additionally, when you are getting those losses on your ballot for things that you can't control, like whatever you were wearing or if you were allegedly too loud by a judge, it can be really difficult to hear over and over again because you know that you should be performing well, your coaches know that you should be performing well, but the judges simply aren't giving it to you because of your gender or they're judging you harder because of it, and that can be super discouraging.
Natalyia Kopack:And then also we see a lot of issues with bullying when it comes to debate. I think recently it has kind of transformed into a boys club. I think debate has always been tailored a little bit more for males. That was the people who were first debating and joining these teams and because of that there really is a dynamic where girls are kind of looked down upon by a lot of debaters and obviously it isn't everyone and sometimes it isn't intentional. But also when you have a bunch of casual relationships between teenagers, like we're all in high school together, we're all hanging out on the weekends and we all know each other. They are casual friendships in a more professional environment.
Natalyia Kopack:You see, sometimes things slide that shouldn't like maybe misogynistic remarks or jokes that cross a line and nobody says anything because oh, it's just a joke, it's just my teammate, it's okay. But really it isn't okay and it sometimes can evolve into bullying and harassment and all these different issues. And then also, you know, sometimes male debaters, just like everybody else, say nasty things about their female counterparts and say, oh, I'm going to win this round because I'm against a girl, or just kind of horrible things are said that leave girls feeling unsafe in the environment. You know, just not really having that encouragement and motivation to keep going, because everybody is kind of beating down on you, between judges and your male teammates and things like that, it can just get really difficult to stay afloat.
Lyle Wiley:Some heavy stuff and it's all very real. I don't know how comfortable you are to talk about this, but have you experienced some of these injustices and biases on your own debate journey?
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, I have. My freshman year was kind of difficult because I've always been a really feminine girl, so I love pink suits and dressing up and I think it's really fun and I think when I was looked down on for doing that, I know this year specifically I experienced a couple of male debaters in my Congress rounds referring to me as like legally blonde and not in a good way, not like she's a Harvard graduate kind of way, but in a pretty degrading way, and that has always been really hurtful. Is people looking down on me because of that? And then also I just think it is really hard to have a team where you don't have any of that male toxicity towards female debaters.
Natalyia Kopack:I think sometimes it wasn't malicious or intentional to try to drive me out of debate or anything like that, but I've experienced a lot of comments about, maybe, my body in a debate round that didn't need to be spoken about or just things like that that were incredibly humiliating and degrading and did make me want to quit for a while. I debated coming back my sophomore year because I just didn't want to deal with it anymore and I really was struggling with just kind of dealing with some of the boys in debate and also I'm in Congress, which I think has some of the most toxicity out of anything, because it is an inherently political event and it does kind of become a boys club even more than other events. It does get kind of difficult to have boundaries and things like that, and I've also always had trouble speaking up for myself and saying, hey, that's not funny, don't say that. And sometimes it just gets worse and worse and worse. Before I'm kind of like, hey, whoa, let's not say those things anymore.
Lyle Wiley:Well, first off, I'm sorry you've experienced those things. This is unacceptable in our community and it's one of the reasons why we have to talk about it a lot. We try to on this podcast. But yeah, I was thinking about Congress and just how unmoored it is in a lot of ways from traditional rules and structures. I should just say structures there's rules in Congress but they're not always super followed. But the structure of Congress kind of lends itself to sometimes getting a little out of control. Huh.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, it can be really difficult because it is a student-run event, because a lot of judges don't know what they're doing when they're judging Congress, so sometimes it's harder to stop when things are going wrong. And also it is really political when it comes to chair elections and it comes to who's getting to speak first, and there's just a lot of just like our real Congress. There's a lot of room for corruption and things like that and it is kind of a breeding ground for issues if it's not kept in check at tournaments and on teams themselves.
Lyle Wiley:If you have a Congress team and you're not talking to them and making sure that things are being run properly and that they're not doing crazy things in round, then things kind of do get out of control and yeah, one of the things I'm going to ask you about is solutions and just thinking about Congress specifically, is there something we could do to shore up some of those loose structures in Congress to try to help that event a little bit specifically, be a little less Wild West-y and reach places of inappropriateness?
Natalyia Kopack:Yes, I think it is something that first needs to be talked about by coaches any coach that has maybe even two kids in Congress or just one talking about what is appropriate in what isn't appropriate in congress. At the end of the day, even though it is kind of a more fun and wild westy event, there are structures and rules and it isn't just a free-for-all. We don't want to be wasting judges time and making a mockery of the event that they came to judge. We don't want to be being disrespectful or hurting people in round and I think when a coach talks to their students about that and says, hey, let's talk about what's appropriate in round and decorum and etiquette and all of these different things that are important to keeping it less Wild Westy, I think we start to see some of those issues dissolve because students know what is appropriate and know that there will be consequences or it will be addressed if they do something that isn't appropriate. And then also, I think it could be wildly helpful for tournaments that have the resources to do a little bit more required judge training for Congress.
Natalyia Kopack:I think Congress and policy are some of the hardest events to judge, just because they're a little more complicated, and in Congress you're keeping track of so many people that it is kind of hard to look at what else is happening in the round besides speeches. But I think if we one are putting the more experienced judges on those rounds in the first place, we're going to see less issues like that. Because I think even for kids that don't want to respect their coaches and actually follow the boundaries and structure of Congress, when you have a judge in that room saying what are we doing? That needs to stop, you see better behavior, I think, and then also just really helping out Congress judges and saying, hey, this is what the event is supposed to look like. It has all of the same etiquette, rules and appropriateness that other events have. Let's make sure that that's being followed, and things like that. When you kind of give the judges more support, I think it's easier to control those rounds.
Lyle Wiley:Oh, thanks for that, nat. That's some good feedback about Congress specifically, and there will be some overlap with this next question. But let's talk about solutions. How can we, as a community and as teams, create more sustainably equitable and safe environments for all competitors? You know the local level, the coach level, competitor level, regional level, national level. Do you have some thoughts about solutions? It's a large question, I know, but I know you got this.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah. So of course I am like a high school girl. I don't have the answers to everything, but I do have some perspective on this. I think the first thing is it's important to note that there is kind of a ripple effect when you're an informed and equitable competitor, that makes the people around you more equitable, which makes your team more equitable, and that goes up to coach region and nationals. So I think the first thing to look at is the competitor, that's the person it kind of traces back down to.
Natalyia Kopack:And first of all, I think competitors need to be aware and acknowledge issues of different demographics in the community, like going on to that example of sexism and kind of the misogyny that we see. Being aware that that is happening and knowing that it is an issue makes it a lot easier to kind of check your behavior and say is what I'm doing normal right now or is it something that maybe is misogynistic or makes someone feel unsafe? When you're aware of all of the issues in the community, it's easier to not be a part of them. I also just think being respectful and kind of thinking kindness 101, at the end of the day, this is a more professional kind of club. You are doing events that really matter and that affect people. But just thinking about how your actions and what you're saying do affect everybody around you, whether it's at a tournament, whether it's at a practice or whether it's just in a regular conversation about debate, that should be something that we're all looking at, and then also, I think, for the competitors, looking at other people's boundaries and respecting them, and then also talking about your boundaries. To have an equitable team, you need to be aware of what is okay and what isn't okay. So if someone says something to you or there's behavior happening on your team that you think isn't appropriate, making sure that your coaches know about it, making sure that the people around you or the people that are acting that way are being told hey, that isn't okay, because at the end of the day, sometimes not every behavior is malicious. And if you're sitting there and going, hey, this actually is really hurting me, this isn't all right, maybe they'll stop, maybe there's more of room for growth and less harm to other people within that, and then obviously that then goes to the team. When you have all of those people doing those things, then you have a healthier team. Obviously, competition makes it inevitable that there is going to be some butting heads, but having good conflict skills and making sure that you're minimizing infighting and kind of dealing with the issues when they arise. You have to have positive communication channels. So when everybody feels comfortable talking to each other and they know that it is not a toxic environment and that you can talk about issues that are happening, then it is more clear what is going on and more clear how to handle it. Because when those issues arise, if you feel comfortable talking to your coach about it, then the coach can feel comfortable handling it. Then on the coach level, I think they're one of the most important people that have the most impact on everybody in speech and debate.
Natalyia Kopack:Without healthy coaches, you kind of have a whole community fall apart. So, first of all, setting boundaries and rules with your team and saying that there is zero tolerance for things like discrimination, harassment. Any bad behavior that harms other students needs to have no tolerance, and set rules about what's going to happen if it does occur. And just having those boundaries with your students to be very clear about what isn't allowed. And then also handling the issues when they arise. If you have good communication with channels with your kids and they're coming up to you and saying, hey, this is happening, I'm not comfortable with it. Actually talking to the students that are causing issues and handling those issues is incredibly important to make sure that everybody feels listened to and the environment stays healthy. And then I think if you have healthy coaches and these healthy teams, you have healthier regions, because coaches who have positive environments with their kids and appreciate and respect everybody in the community are going to again have that ripple effect and the coaches around you then become more equitable and tournaments become more equitable. So, and I also think regionally, there needs to be this understanding that if there is coaches or kids that are disrespectful and do cause issues for other students, that are causing harm to the community and the integrity that speech and debate has, then making sure that we're aware of that Because not necessarily do you have to shut anybody from tournaments or not allow them to do things, but making sure that you have systems in place for people that act that way and when issues do arise can be really important at the regional level, at tournaments specifically, and then also, if you're running tournaments, making sure that if you have the resources, having diversity and inclusion stations, having plans in place for when things go wrong and just making sure that that's okay. And then the national level.
Natalyia Kopack:I kind of have a hot take about the NSDA right now. I think recently the NSDA has kind of been putting profit before their students and I think there's a lack of integrity in the activity in comparison to previous years. A lot of inclusion efforts that you see are rather new. When you look at the equity commitments and those rostrums, they started in 2018, which is pretty recent. They haven't been there since the start of speech and debate and they are obviously still working towards making it better and having more inclusion.
Natalyia Kopack:But I think they need to hone down specific issues. If you look to the 2023-2024 equity commitments, you can see that not a single commitment or effort to help female debaters was specifically made this year, and next year's commitments don't outline anything either. I think the NSDA really needs to look and acknowledge the issues that are happening and then look at solving them specifically instead of kind of having these wide diversity commitments. And then also, I think there's issues like the belonging and inclusion stations are relatively new and they do require them or they try to have them at every district tournament and at the national tournament, but I think it should be at every tournament that we have officers that are helping with that, that we have these stations to help kids and overall, I just think the NSDA needs to put in a little bit more effort to honing in on specific issues. And then also, if you have coaches and you have regions that are healthy, you're going to have a national level that's more healthy.
Lyle Wiley:Some good stuff. I kind of agree with your hot take too. I mean, at the individual level, I think there's a lot of really well-meaning people, but I do feel like often there's some performative sort of stuff happening instead of like actual stuff happening yeah, I agree.
Natalyia Kopack:I think sometimes they are looking to have representation instead of solving the issues and obviously representation is a great thing, but I think there could be more resources funneled towards fixing thing the root causes absolutely, I think.
Lyle Wiley:I think that's fair, I think, and I hopefully, hopefully that'll improve. I just feel like we've come to this party awfully late. This has been a problem, uh, for a really long time, and it doesn't seem as though nsda has had much sense of urgency and do anything to fix it.
Natalyia Kopack:So seems a little bit like a back burner effort yeah, although I mean it has.
Lyle Wiley:They've definitely at least made some commitments last few years that, um that I mean, are steps in the right direction. They just feel sort of like baby steps. So yes yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Hopefully we can continue to have these kinds of conversations and and push people to thinking about stuff that is not always really all that comfortable for people to think about, but they need to think about it.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah.
Lyle Wiley:And, yeah, I'm very sorry again for your experience as a young debater in the state, a young, talented debater that we need to like, foster your talent and help you to excel. I think it's kind of sad and hard to hear that you've had moments where you weren't sure that you were going to continue this because of the treatment that you've received as a woman.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, thank you. I think it is difficult, but I also think it's important to look at the good in speech and debate and, while it is important to have the conversations and educate people on the issues that are happening, because they can't be solved if people don't know about them, I am happy that I'm in speech and debate and I think it has been a great experience for me, and I'm glad that I've chosen to stay, despite any treatment that has happened in the past.
Lyle Wiley:Well, we're glad to have you. Hopefully we as a community can do a better job of advocating for everyone in this activity, but that does lead into. I do want to like give you an opportunity to talk about some of the things that you really think are great about speech and debate. First off, what are you most looking forward to this upcoming season? What are you excited about?
Natalyia Kopack:I'm really excited to be trying out new events and I'm also just excited to stay connected with other teams. One of my favorite parts about speech and debate is the community that we have and meeting all these people from across the state and even at the national level. I attended nationals for the first time this year and you meet so many people and it's really cool to be around people that have the same passion as you and the same interests. Where you not everybody has a family that wants to hear about the political and socioeconomic state of the world. So being in an environment where you can talk about all of these different issues that everybody cares about is so important to me and it has made my life so much better.
Natalyia Kopack:I think I just feel heard and included, being able to talk to all of these people around the state. So that's probably the thing I'm most excited about is seeing those people that maybe live four hours away and don't always get to come visit, and seeing them at tournaments and participating with them and getting to hang out with them, because it really I think a lot of passion for the events comes from the community, Because if you don't have those people that you love competing with you kind of lack a little passion for the event on occasion, because it just becomes harder without friends. So that's probably one of the things I'm most excited about is just seeing everybody again and just getting to make progress in my events and trying out new things.
Lyle Wiley:For you is that? Is that probably the best part of speech and debate is the community.
Natalyia Kopack:Yeah, I think so. I just love everyone here so much and I also love my events, of course. My other favorite part is definitely case construction and actually doing fundamental debate stuff. I love cutting cards, even during the summer. Sometimes, if I know potential topics, I'm writing cases and maybe starting on my research just because I find a lot of enjoyment in that. But I do think the community is definitely my favorite part.
Lyle Wiley:Oh, that's lovely. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me here, Nat. I do want to end our interview with a little bit of fear talk. You know, I think public speaking is it's widely known as one of the greatest fears for the public. It's a visceral horror for a lot of folks outside of speech and debate. So why is participating in speech and debate worth the terror, the anxiety, the horror?
Natalyia Kopack:I think there's a lot of reasons why it is worth the terror, I think, first, you're going to have new skills that you can put into everywhere.
Natalyia Kopack:If you're learning how to debate, if you're learning how to speak publicly, that transfers over to your school, to education and being able to maybe give a presentation in front of your class without as much anxiety as before.
Natalyia Kopack:And learning those new skills. And also it makes you feel better about yourself. When you know that public speaking is one of the biggest fears in the world and you can do it every single weekend and you choose to do it, I think you get a little more confidence in yourself to say, oh, I can do this here, I can do this everywhere, I can public speak whenever I want, and all of these skills are applicable all of the time. And just knowing that you are good enough to do something like this and I just think that makes you feel better about yourself, it increases your self-image and your confidence. And also, just do it to meet the people. At the very minimum, go meet some new friends from Wyoming or from whatever state you're in and have those new friendships and lasting relationships with those people, because it can be really helpful and add to your success as a person to meet all of these different people with different perspectives and to just participate in speech and debate and learn about other people, learn about yourself and to appreciate the world around you.
Lyle Wiley:Thanks for helping us navigate the clapocalypse, which I'm still figuring out exactly how to say the clapocalypse, yeah, just thank you so much for being here and joining me and chatting with me. I appreciate you.
Natalyia Kopack:Thank you for having me. I think it's been an honor to be on OneClap. This has been my dream for the past two years, so I'm very excited to be here.
Lyle Wiley:Thanks so much to Nat for her candid, helpful and fun interview. I'll link to Natalia's article published in Equality and Forensics on the website and you should definitely give it a read. What's going on in the clapocalypse tomorrow? Well, casper College competitor and Lander High School alum, josie House, will be here for an interview. Don't miss it. Remember to check the social media challenges on our socials and we'll see you tomorrow. Campers oh yeah, I told my friend Adrian that we were all the way to day 13 at camp and he said 13, not on my watch or on my clock. Huh for camp, one clock. This is camp director Wiley signing off.